Douglas Horne joins S.T. Patrick on the first episode of 2019 to discuss the debate over Zapruder Film alteration. Horne is the author of the five-volume Inside the Assassination Records Review Board: The U.S. Government’s Final Attempt to Reconcile the Conflicting Medical Evidence in the Assassination of JFK, JFK’s War with the National Security Establishment: Why Kennedy Was Assassinated, and the two-volume Deception, Intrigue, and the Road to War, which discusses FDR’s actions leading up to Pearl Harbor. This was the subject of episode 007 of the Midnight Writer News Show. Mr. Horne’s article for the seventh issue of garrison.: The Journal of History & Deep Politics is entitled “August 1941: The Key to Understanding FDR’s Design for American Entry into World War II.” It can be purchased at garrison’s LuLu website.
The following outline and supporting evidence have been supplied by Mr. Horne for this presentation:
Douglas Horne’s Zapruder Film Presentation Outline:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_QIuu6hsAc
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
To Doug Horne:
You stated that you believe a forward snap of JFK’s head was removed from the Zapruder film (“Z”).
The head shot sequence in Z matches the head shot sequences in both the Nix & Muchmore films.
If Z was altered – then logically Nix & Muchmore would have to have been altered as well.
Muchmore was shown just four days after the assassination on WNEW-TV in NYC.
Question – The individuals whom you allege altered Z… how were they able to, in less than 4 days:
a) Identify ALL films (and ALL copies of ALL films) that would ever be discovered of the assassination
b) Gain complete control over all these films, and all copies…
c) Alter these films in a fashion that would remain undetectable for over 50 years
But of course, the biggest problem with believing that Z has been altered by substituting a forward head snap for a rearward one is obvious – WHY ????
The rearward snap of JFK’s head is THE single most damning piece of evidence against the Warren Report.
Doug, with respect, what is it I’m not seeing here ???
Curious to hear any thoughts
Thanks,
Steve Thompson
To: Steve Thompson From: Doug Horne
Here are some responses, in no particular order of importance:
(1) Both the original Nix film and the original Muchmore film are missing today. All we have are copies. The Muchmore film has a big ugly physical splice in it during the headshot sequence. The splice speaks for itself, in my view: the headshot has been altered/edited in the Muchmore film. I don’t have to figure out when or by whom when I see that splice—it’s been altered. When Nix got his film back from the FBI, he said that many frames were missing when he was interviewed on film by Mark Lane (see “Rush to Judgment”).
(2) The head snap appears (to me) to occur at a different speed in the Z film, and in the Nix film, and in the Muchmore film. The headsnap in the Z film appears faster than in the Nix film, and even slower in the Muchmore film than in the Nix film. This is my subjective judgment after looking at those films repeatedly. This implies different degrees of alteration—an imperfect coverup.
(3) The “facts on the ground” are the facts on the ground: both Dan Rather of CBS and Cartha DeLoach of the FBI said that JFK’s head jerked violently FORWARD in the early version of the film (the first day copies) seen by each of them. That’s a fact. Just because we don’t fully understand that (i.e., why that would have been removed) doesn’t mean we should discard those facts. It may be that keeping such a forward motion in the film would have revealed other, unacceptable things if that forward headsnap had remained in the film. I have concluded it was removed when the car stop was removed. I understand your point: if there was a forward head snap consistent with the lone assassin hypothesis, you are asking “Why wasn’t it left in the film?” We don’t know the precise answer to that without seeing the unaltered original. I can only conclude that leaving that in the film would have been outweighed by something pretty damning that would have been revealed by leaving it in.
(4) I am as certain as I can be, at this writing, that exit debris frames were removed through step printing at Hawkeyeworks and that this has speeded up the headsnap when the film is played back at normal playback speeds. No one in Dealey Plaza described such a violent headsnap to JFK. This unintentional byproduct of alteration (extremely rapid motion to the left and rear, as opposed to the moderate motion to the left and rear that probably occurred in real life) was so unacceptable that the film was suppressed as a motion picture by LIFE and those working with LIFE (i.e., the cabal), because yes, that extremely rapid motion to the left rear was in opposition to the Warren Commission’s findings of a lone assassin shooting from behind. If you ask “Why did those altering the film allow this to happen?”—the answer is because it would have been much MORE damning to see copious amounts of exit debris traveling to the rear leaving JFK’s head, than just a rapid headsnap with NO exit debris. It was not possible to alter the gross motion of JFK’s entire body to the left and rear: there was no CGI in 1963, and the only way to do that would have been to use crude animation (such as seen in the black patch in frame 317)—and this crude animation would clearly have been seen for what it was: alteration in the form of a cartoon. I believe those who altered the film believed they could still “sell” a fatal shot from behind by painting the red or orange head explosion onto frame 313, and claiming that it was exit debris from a shot from behind. Those who have posited the jet effect or a neuromuscular reaction are essentially playing this game, and giving credence to frame 313 as exit debris, from a shot from above and behind. LIFE (and its allies in the cabal) believed it could still control the impact of the Zapruder film by suppressing it as a motion picture and by selective release of certain still frames only. Because Robert Groden liberated the film through his bootleg copy, they failed, and starting in 1975, the rapid headsnap appeared to be pretty damning evidence of a shot from the front. But the point is that they not only thought they could control that evidence, but they DID control it, for 12 years.
(5) I have a profound respect for certain basic facts, and the timeline as I understand it. I am not inclined to dismiss facts just because I cannot figure out why someone would do something. Inability to get inside the head of the director and editor at Hawkeyeworks doesn’t cause me to dismiss basic facts, such as the fact that Rather and DeLoach saw what they saw, or that 72 Hollywood professionals believe the Z film has been altered by placing an optical patch (animation) over several frames of the back of the head.
(6) These responses may or may not satisfy you. All I know is that the large exit wound in the right rear of JFK’s head has been covered up by animation; that a large exit wound (roughly consistent with some autopsy photos) has been painted on the top of his head—and it is a wound not seen by anyone near the gurney at Parkland Hospital. Furthermore, Erwin Schwartz and the two Dallas surveyors (Brenneman and West) all saw exit debris coming out the back of JFK’s head in the film, and we don’t see that in the film today. Finally, Dino Brugioni saw a very different head explosion in the Z film he worked with on 11/23 than in the film we see today: his head explosion was much higher in the air, lasted for more than one frame, and was white—not red or pink. To me these are the essentials in the case for alteration. They will remain so, in my view, even though many other questions and peripheral issues cannot be answered, or resolved today. There are scores of questions I would love to have answered about the Z film, and they will probably never be answered unless the “other film” (the unaltered camera-original) turns up for comparison purposes. But these unanswered questions do not dissuade me from being convinced, by the weight of the evidence, that the Zapruder film as we know it today is an altered film.
If frames were removed after the headshot, it could be due to reactions of the SS agents to a subsequent shot (which would preclude coming from Oswald’s rifle) or perhaps this is when the windshield was damaged which would be problematic for the same reason. While the latter could conceivably be disguised, the former could not. Could also be due to Zapruder’s reaction to a shot that would not support the timing. Wonder how this would fit in to the “jiggle analysis” of the Z film.
I am still reluctant to accept eyewitness accounts of the limo stopping. I know from personal experience that in traumatic moments your internal clock speeds up and times is perceived as slowing down. What is a definite slowing down becomes a stop. On the other hand, the perception of two of the shots close together is significant because that was how it was perceived during a perceptual slowing down of time. Human seem to recall sound patterns quite accurately which helps recall songs.
The differences in the head snap between the Z film and the Nix and Muchmore films could be due to the speed which the cameras filmed at being projected at the same rate.
To Kevin Balch:
I understand the reluctance of many people to accept that the limousine stopped during the shooting. And I understand the subjective slowing down of time during a traumatic event.
I am not entirely sure myself that JFK’s limousine stopped during the assassination. Sometimes when I think about it I consider it a near certainty; at other times when I think about it I consider it less likely. I am of a mixed mind about it.
But I do lean toward it having stopped, very briefly and however momentarily. Those 59 car stop witnesses documented by Vince Palamara and other researchers over the years are pretty damn persuasive to me, as a group. So many of them were close to the limousine, including the 4 motorcycle outriders, that I simply cannot easily dismiss their collective observations. Most persuasive to me is the interview motorcycle patrolman Bobby Hargis gave to the Dallas paper (which was never published but was found in the newspaper’s archives by Richard Trask); the 1971 audio interviews of the motorcycle outriders put up on YouTube by Larry Rivera; the statements of Bill Newman over the years; and the written affidavit of Hugh Betzner executed on the day of the assassination. Betzner, like Newman, was absolutely certain the limousine stopped—and his Sherriff’s Dept. affidavit was typed and signed on 11/22/63 when his perceptions and recollections were quite fresh, and not tainted by any outside influences.
While there is certainly some doubt about this, my point during the PODCAST was to say that IF the car stop DID happen, the only way it could have happened without a jump cut being evident in the film was IF Abraham Zapruder had shot at the “slow motion” setting on his camera, which was designed to be 3 times the normal frame rate—that is, 48 frames per second, vice the designed 16 frames per second.
All Zapruder would have had to do to change from 16 fps to 48 fps was to increase the pressure on the operating switch with his index finger…that is, move it down one more notch, from “run” to “slow motion.”
My discussion of this subject was an “if-then” proposition. The car stop would then have been removed through step printing in an optical printer. In other words, I see this “step printing” alteration as fully within the capabilities of Hawkeyeworks while using the aerial optical printer to paint out the exit wound in the rear of the head, and add the enormous exit wound to the top of the head. That “aerial imaging” process was a frame by frame alteration which required the examination, possible alteration, and re-photographing of each film frame, one-by-one, as needed; so removing a brief car stop through step printing would have been feasible, as I see it, during the same operation. END
Doug Horne – Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed reply.
It the Z film was filmed in slow motion, certain events such as Rosemary Willis’ run would have looked “off” as would Clint Hill’s approach to the limo and Jackie’s climb towards the rear of the limo. Somebody (might have been Alvarez) analyzed the frequency of clapping by spectators and concluded that if filmed in slow motion by a factor of 3, the energy to clap at the freqency seen would have been 9 times greater than people normally expend in clapping.
Even at normal filming speed, a limo stop of 1-2 seconds would require excising/altering 18-36 frames.
I don’t think a deliberate stopping of the limo to give the shooter(s) a better shot as some suggest (not you) would help and in fact might work against anyone tracking the limo and aiming for where the limo would be a moment hence. That is, if the driver were crazy enough to knowingly be so close to the target. It appears to me as if the driver was breaking or taking his foot off the accelerator as he was turning his head around.
By the way, I really enjoyed your presentation on FDR and Pearl Harbor.
Doug, if the original left the first place NIPC early Sunday morning and had to go to another town to get worked on in Hawkeye works in and then time to get it packed up and sent back to the first place, When you take out the time of travel to and from another city, How many hours did they have at HawkeyeWorks to do the patches and lots of paint and skull removal from those many frames? They would be pressed for time right? How much time did the film artists have? Has anyone tried to interview artists or those with those talents who were at Hawkeworks on Sunday?
It’s not implausible that the initial forward head snap was necessarily deleted because it coincided with the sudden stoppage of the limo, making it appear it had stopped on a dime by design to give the front shooter a stationary target. I.e., the sudden forward lurch Rather saw was due to sudden breaking, so it is correct to surmise this was taken out along with the limo’s sudden stop.
I’m just wondering did dino not see the film in 75 when it was realsed to the public cause you would have thought he would have said something back then like that’s not not what I saw In 63 why did it take him so long ?
The Nix film closeup shows a bullet coming from an object on the car as it snaps forward and rises through his head sending spray forward and up and holes appear in his head in back and on the top. The Nix film showing this initial dead on kill shot was cut from Zapruder. His head moved forward and then snapped back to normal…all before the faked kill shot in Z which is in front of his head painted in and then one frame of spray painted red…..the real kill shot came from the limousine and was fixed to break the bubble top if used but gave them a shot from 3 feet away and it has been hidden from the American people and people with eyes to see can see it and realize the whole narrative is false.
I’ve had Dino Brugioni’s “Photo Fakery” on my Amazon wish list for some time. Interestingly, the CSPAN interview with Mr. Brugioni regarding this book is blank on both Apple and Windows. I’m going to go ahead and order the book.
I think Doug Horne has a compelling case that two independent and compartmentalized NPIC teams viewed “a” Zapruder film on subsequent nights. It’s difficult to come up with a reason to go through the same exercise twice if they were viewing the same film. As far as I know, no one has disputed that these events took place.
I’m skeptical of removal of frames to hide the poor control of the turn on to Elm St. or the “stop” following the head shot. I agree with Steve Thompson that the head snap is also apparent in the other films which also show the limo slowing down but not stopping for a second or two. What sane person would be a driver or front seat passenger in a vehicle they knew was going to be fired upon, possibly in a cross fire? In the film “Executive Action”, the assassination teams practiced on vehicles that were either towed or the driver had a helmet (not sure what good that would do if there was a miss).
The alteration of the wounds to be compatible with the autopsy findings is plausible, however and appears within the limits of the technology of the time and time constraints.
I think Robert Groden should be provided the opportunity to refute what Doug Horne has said with respect to his non-participation in this effort and why. I’ll also have to review Episode 103.
I want to thank you very much for you comments. They are very well thought out. I, however, can assure you that the last thing that wither Robert or Doug wants to do is engage in a back-and-forth. They have both done this for decades and I think both are tired of the spats. They both have views on the Zapruder film which I feel like we have highlighted as much as we can on the show (for something that is very visual). I owe sincere thanks to both for appearing, but I can tell you that neither is into a back-and-forth. Thanks. — S.T.
“I’m skeptical of removal of frames to hide the poor control of the turn on to Elm St….”
I seem to recall a conjecture (or perhaps Zapruder even said this?) that the gap appears because Zapruder stopped filming briefly to rewind the camera — he could tell by the sound that the spring-loaded film advance mechanism was running down, and rather than risk not being able to film JFK as he passed by directly in front of him on Elm St, he stopped filming briefly and quickly rewound the camera.
I also think the evidence for two NIPC actions is now very convincing/indisputable — re the Zapruder film generally, the chain of custody question is a very interesting aspect — as is the fact that after paying (what was at the time) a lot of money for the rights, Life never exhibited it as a motion picture.
This was another absolutely fantastic show. The credibility of the corporate mainstream media is being absolutely shredded by Midnight Writer News and other alternative media channels. You certainly wont see anything like this on the History or Discovery channels.
As regards the Zapruder film I have always been puzzled by the really odd behaviour of the crowd lining the route at the top of Elm Street after the car turn from Houston Street. They stand there like statues almost completely inanimate. Its almost as if they are waiting for the motorcade to arrive and are oblivious to fact its passing right in front of them. I’m sure this has fuelled much of the extensive alteration side of the argument which I do still find to be rather implausible. This whole thing is such a damn impenetrable puzzle, Mr Horne and other researchers through their diligent hard work have managed to prise back the cover a little bit but even after 55 years we still cannot prise the cover completely off. Well done ST on another great episode.
I have a comment about the mainstream media. The mainstream media is pathetic and complicit, but NOT the the problem. I don’t know how the media ever came to be seen as the place to look for the truth. I guess the idea is we expect them to be neutral. None of that matters.
The problem is the federal GOVERNMENT. Imagine, if you can, a government body like the Warren Commission, publishing a straight-forward account of facts as well as they can be known. If that happened, the mainstream media would report that as the official truth.
And this, my fellow American, is exactly what is needed, and here is why. The media is not ours. The media is comprised of commercial enterprises with interests that are now ours to influence. The government is ours. It is up to all of us to lead the government to doing the right thing.
Our task is not easy. We don’t get to pick the duty that falls into our laps. We didn’t have to ride those landing boats into Omaha beach and get shot the moment the door dropped open. We didn’t have to charge across the open ground in Gettysburg, or leave our bloody footprints in the snow marching onto Trenton.
Blaming the media is making an excuse to not do our utmost. Besides, when our government makes the truth its official position, the media will fall into line immediately.
I believe that John Costella has offered a scientific proof of alteration. But I’m no scientist, so I can only take Mr Costella’s word for his explanation being correct. His “blur mistake” argument makes logical sense and I haven’t seen it disproven as of yet.
S.T., do you have any plans to do an hour or so with John Costella? I would love to hear his current thinking on this subject.
I am open to having almost anyone on. I have never spoken to or met Mr. Costella, but I will check into it, yes. Thanks. — S.T.
how if rear blacked out exit do they get left hemisphere to appear explosively exposéd on right ok with either or both parietal/cerebellum just that frangible b projectile basically would
ST, unfortunately, my two-part “JFK Horsemen” videos mentioned by Douglas were scrubbed by Youtube last year after receiving thousands of views and likes. In the audiotapes provided to me by Tyler Newcomb, whose father Fred wrote “Murder From Within”, it was clearly established by the motorcycle escort, Hargis, Martin, Chaney, Jackson, and their supervisor Stavis Ellis, that the limo came to a complete stop, where a Secret Service agent snatched a piece of JFK’s skull from a kid standing on the South curb of Elm Street then tossed into the limo, five Secret Service agents dismounted and ran up to and surrounded JFK’s limo with guns drawn, AND Chaney described how Hargis parked his bike and “ran in between the two limos” on his way up the embankment. None of this is seen in any of the films that survive today. Moreover, one of the very first reports by Cronkite described “Secret Service Agents fanning out into the crowd, looking for the assassin”
This is the reason why the motorcycle cops were hidden away and suppressed for years from researchers. To give you an example, Hargis and Martin were the only ones who testified before the Warren Commission for a grand total of 7 1/2 pages! The FBI did not interview any of the escorts until 1975, well after the fact, and it was only to establish shots from behind. These reports read like true theater of the absurd, where they are portrayed as looking over their shoulders toward the TSBD when in fact you see none of this in any of the films.
One of the witnesses to the president’s limousine “stopping” was Senator Ralph Yarborough (D-Texas), who was riding in the back seat of the open convertible behind the Queen Mary with LBJ
and Lady Bird Johnson. Yarborough told me in 1988, “The first shot I heard I thought
was a rifle shot. The second shot, the motorcade almost came to a halt. They said
later that the president’s car slowed to something like five miles an hour. I wondered
what the hell they were stopping for when somebody is shooting. People were jumping
out of the car in front of me [the Secret Service foll0wup car] and running to the
president’s car. I thought maybe somebody had thrown a bomb in there. The third shot
I heard was a rifle shot.” So Yarborough also saw more than one Secret Service agent
jump out of the Queen Mary and run to the president’s car; on the Zapruder film
we see only Clint Hill do that. This interview is quoted in my 2013 book INTO THE NIGHTMARE: MY SEARCH FOR THE KILLERS OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY AND OFFICER J. D. TIPPIT. — Joseph McBride
I would recommend Into the Nightmare to anyone. It is a fascinating work, really a high point in research. — S.T. Patrick
Hello,
I often wondered if Secret Service Agent Greer saw/witnessed the windshield strike, then in reaction to it slowed down or stopped? Several frames of the Mix film clearly show the brake lights lit.
No. Neither Greer, Kellerman nor Sam Kinney, the driver of the followup car and helped reinstall the bubble top at Parkland and drove it to Love Field saw the damage until later.. The bullet hole does not have the look of of a bullet hole normally seen in safety glass, but looks like the damage from a fragment.
That was a two day event but it was awesome. More great stuff. FROM THE MNW. I will be purchasing a copy of the DEEP TRUTH JOURNAL also.
We thank you both for being a listener and for purchasing the magazine. You’ll love the magazine. It’s packed with content. Doug Horne’s episodes are ones to which you will return, as well. MWN is very proud to call him a friend of the show and its friendly neighborhood host. If you haven’t followed us on social media yet, please do so. The links are on the front page of the website. Thanks, Phil. — S.T. Patrick
Having hosted 224 one hour JFK shows with Larry Rivera and Jim Fetzer , attending countless “JFK” conferences… being disgusted at the infiltration of our so called “Research Community” , Doug Horne is truly one the most credible sources for true information concerning JFK that students of the case can find. Gary King
Tosh Plumlee… aka Wm H Pearson CIA operative…. front shot south side of triple underpass…slight turn to left (5degrees) slope downward degrees to underpass rear of limo higher than the front three feet. Sherry Fiest and I worked together on this for over two years as well as Jim Marrs. And the Limo did pause slightly.
Kudos to all for a job well done. We so hoped that Doug could speak at our 6th Annual Conference, as Bob Groden was there with no countering argument to his version of what happened to the Zapruder film. At a “showdown” that also occurred at that time, had to step forward to defend the intrepid Wilkinson and Whitehead, who presented work both Doug and I had viewed first-hand for ourselves, at their home — the impressive details of which were impossible to fully convey by Skype. Doug was sorely needed to provide balance to what was presented, so it’s only fair that we present this material during the 2019 November conference. Please do help us cement the matter for good, and agree to present this material in person! Our theme this year is TO TURN THE TIDE. As a conference that strives for action, because of the importance of this seminal interview, it is our hope that JFK Assassination Conferences will be given the honor and responsibility to help you present the full matter [with extended time offered to do it right] for our attendees at the 7th Annual JFK Assassination Conference, many of whom devote their resources and time to obtain the full truth, and who disseminate it through the US, Europe, Australia and beyond. This stunning and vital information would be highlighted and headlined. Our hope is that Joseph McBride [his work is impressive] will also attend, along with Douglas Horne, Larry Rivera, and of course our highly appreciated S.T., w/ Midnight Writer News… (we would fly everyone in and accommodate you appropriately, in exchange for your spreading the word! We would also publicize your magazine). We look forward to hearing from you (please be sure to contact [email protected] in a timely manner). We hope to publicize this remarkable interview on our websites, which are about to be updated. Thank you again, Douglas Horne, for making this effort. Your work is priceless, your battle exhausting and disheartening, but the tide is turning, Doug. Your sacrifices will not have been made in vain. Hoping you will come in person, in 2019, to Dallas! Gratefully, Judyth Vary Baker, witness, author and founder of JFK Conferences, LLC.
Great to see you still pressing forward, Doug!
A simple question, when was the alleged in-camera original Z-film currently under the supervision of the 6th Floor Mausoleum laced up and run through a projector? 40 years, 50years? Just imagine what optical printing lab could do in 40-50years….
David Healy
Hearing Mr Horne complain about internecine squabbles within the JFK research milieu reminded me of this 1999 presentation by Doug Weldon — Jim Fetzer makes some brief remarks about it as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OACTLn75I30
“Eah,” I do not think Mr. Horne was “complaining.” He was honestly explaining an answer to a question that I had asked him. There are many who have backed away from the JFK research community entirely because of the constant fracturing, cliques, and elitism found in many of its members. Mr. Horne is a very private individual who has a true concern for the legitimacy of history. He has a certain level of disdain for turning a research community into a sporting event. It is our honor that he has done two episodes with us, and he continues to be a friend of the show and it’s friendly neighborhood host. Thank you for your comment. — S.T.
Just wondering why would it take dino that long to say that the film he saw wasnt the one he saw in 63 . The zapudor film came out In 75 so you would have thought dino brugioni would have said something way back In the 70s. I’m also curious as to when he seen these briefing boards at the book depository for the first time after he made them .
I have always been impressed by the work done by Doug Horne. He has contributed a great deal to the JFK case and went “above and beyond” in his work with the ARRB. That said, I was very disappointed in his interview. Much of it was utilized to “trash” Robert Groden’s work and opinions regarding the Zapruder film. It is possible to disagree with another researcher and state your own opinion without engaging in accusations and name calling.
Mr. Horne: You mentioned that Robert told you he has memory issues due to a series of strokes. This is true. Especially when responding to questions. Simple information and words do not come as easily as they should. It is a medical issue. It should be treated as such. You also mentioned that you “knew” Robert had a 35mm copy of the Z film and that it was his “best copy”. Really? Then why not just ask him for that film? Why play games with your questions? You went on to describe what happened the last time he shared the film in order to “advance the cause”. Would you feel secure in sharing that property again? I think many people would have reservations. If Mr. Lifton made copies of the individual frames, why not ask him to share them? Would they not be better copies that the ones you had? I was especially upset to hear you state that Robert walked out of the room during the presentation your friends made at the conference. I do not know who told you that, but they are mistaken. I was with Robert throughout the conference. He left the room only if someone called him out to the hallway or wanted to talk to him while others were speaking. He did NOT leave due to the presentation. Many people were in and out during ALL of the presentations. He and I were there all afternoon until dinner. If you think Robert would purposely lie or walk out due to who is speaking, you must know a different Robert Groden than I do. The Robert I know is a better man than that. Your comments regarding his education and professional certifications were totally unnecessary. There are researchers in the JFK community who hold doctorates who are not exactly the “brightest bulbs in the string of lights”. Knowledge and ability are not always tied to education level. I wish you and your friends well in your research. But please keep your comments about others civil. We all have something to contribute.
The case against Robert Groden was presented in “The JFK Wars: The Challenging Case of Robert Groden”, which first appeared in Veterans Today (30 September 2015) and was included as Chapter 19 of JFK: WHO, HOW AND WHY (2017), My indictment of Groden for malfeasance and betrayal of JFK research includes:
(1) Groden denies the existence of a bullet hole in the windshield;
(2) he defends a set of autopsy photos that seem to be fabrications;
(3) he claims the Zapruder film is authentic, which may explain (1);
(4) he maintains that the Altgens6 photograph is also authentic;
(5) he denies Oswald was in the doorway during the shooting; but
(6) he offers an alternative explanation of his location at the time..
The blog remains at https://jamesfetzer.org/2015/09/the-jfk-war-the-challenging-case-of-robert-groden/ but with most of the mages missing, where they are included in Chapter 11 of the book. The positions he has staked out on each of these issues are provably false, as he has to know and understand. He is a charlatan.
The pantheon of greats in recent JFK research includes Robert Livingston, M.D.., David W. Mantik, M.D., Ph.D., John P. Costello, Ph.D., David Lifton, Charles Crenshaw, M.D., Larry Rivera and Douglas Horne. There can be no redemption for Groden or Thik Thompson, among others, who sold out for reasons best known to themselves.
If you want the REAL TRUTH, it’s there Black & White. As I have been following Jim’s work for nearly 30 years in the murder and cover-up of our dear president. And one thing I can say is during these years of watching and listening to his interviews, Mr. Fetzer has always given the straight facts of what was told and never sold out. Not to many researchers in this field for that many years can say that,…can they.
I think people have overlooked the evidence in front of them.
The JFK autopsy clearly states there should be a wound in the occipital lobe and the parietal lobe. The Zapruder film is only showing a frontal lobe and temporal wound.
So the Zapruder film clearly cannot be a genuine recording of the event in 1963.
None of the Doctors at Parkland Hospital and Bethesda wrote down massive wound frontal lobe found.
The evidence has always been there the Autopsy images, X ray slides and the Zapruder film are not real.
“None of the Doctors at Parkland Hospital and Bethesda wrote down massive wound frontal lobe found.”
I agree this deserves emphasis — Mr Horne does emphasize this.
“The evidence has always been there the Autopsy images, X ray slides and the Zapruder film are not real.”
Yes — the huge flesh-colored blob seen on JFK’s head in the Z film — which one can only interpret as a skull flap that has been blasted loose and is being held only because it is still attached to scalp tissue — is just not compatible with what the Parkland doctors reported (whom I personally regard as the most reliable sources on the extent and nature of JFK’s head injuries) — but the skull flap does match the purposed autopsy foto showing the neat entry wound in the rear of the head — the one where you can see a gloved hand with fingers inside a large defect in JFK’s head, and a folded back skull flap.
that flap had been pressed back into place by JBK while she cradled his head on the way to parkland and remained “in place” due to that pressure and the blood drying somewhat. The Dallas doctors never examined the rest of his head but they noted that it was “bloody” . James Jenkins the Bethesda assistant said in his 2018 book when they unwrapped the head that night the right side opened like an egg shell the bone with fractures remained attached to the scalp.
the duluth conference presentations, by jack white and others, have opened my eyes.
the photos of the limo that day were all centered on jfk, plus or minus.
and yet “zapruder” opted to center the camera consistently well above jfk and the limo, beginning from the stemmons sign, and increasingly upward up until the head shot, and then increasingly downward when the limo approaches the triple overpass.
coincidence? who knows. or …
cut out as much of the foreground as possible? hmm. that would certainly make future doctoring of the film easier, by at least a factor of two,. right?
pre-stemmons sign, most folks agree that the people lining the north side of elm street don’t look real. post-stemmons, and except for umbrella man and the cuban, who else is visible?
hmm. is it easier to doctor a film, from objects far away. as opposed to objects that are closer?
sure is curious.
Fantastic stuff, Doug.
Did you ask Brugioni if the film he saw showed the car turning onto Elm or stopping?
Do you think the Zapruder original would show Mary Moorman on the street?
You mentioned HL Hunt having a copy of the Z film. Is that likely an original or the extant Z?
to cindy keller:
your first question to doug horne is a very good one. i’ve watched the edited brugioni interview many times. the two key questions that horne does not ask, or which have been edited out, are exactly as you ask: (1) did brugioni see the car stop for a second or two, or longer, prior to the fatal head shot? and (2) did brugioni see the reportedly awkward limo turn from houston onto elm?
its very curious that horne failed to ask these two questions. or, if he did, that his questions and brugioni’s answers have been edited out.
oliver stone ain’t no dummy. he took the opportunity when he could and made the best of it, monetarily, back in 1991. does he have a “jfk 2” in the works? hmm. i doubt it. there just isn’t money in it.
the recent interest all seems to be about monetizing whatever folks can squeeze out.
what a shame.
if apathy hasn’t set in already, its only a matter of time.
there was an academic group in 2003, that convened in duluth. that is now 16 years ago. has anything else been done since then?
doug’s work with the folks in hollywood may be fruitful, but to what end?
what a shame.
Doug,
Would you be interested in possibly coming to Dealey Plaza on November 22, 2019? In years gone by, the anniversary of the Big Event was marked by an informal, unofficial event in Dealey Plaza. The 50th Anniversary drew Dallas officials into putting on a formal event, and common, uninvited people were not allowed in Dealy Plaza. I don’t know why, but there an idea circulating that event was the to be final anniversary event in Dealey Plaza..
If the anniversary last year is any indication, people are coming out of the woodwork to show up in Dealey Plaza. I cannot prove it, but I still know why. We have an instinctual recognition that when people who were alive back in ’63 are all gone, it will become impossible to make the type of connection to JFK’s assassination that we can make now.
People in our generation have a task to complete. We need to lead our government to set the record straight about what happened. With Presidential and Congressional decrees. We need to find out what stops the government from doing that now and overcome that barrier.
Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain said the 50th reunion of verterans at Gettysburg in 1913 was a “transcendental experience.” John Adams and Thomas Jefferson died within hours of one another on the 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. I was in Dealey Plaza on November 22 last year, and I can attest that there is a real power unknown to science that is perceptal on anniversaries. Our birthdays are relative small examples but we all experience it. There is nothing in this world like the power in Dealy Plaza on the anniversary of JFK’s death.
The anniversary at Dealey Plaza is a tremendous opportunity for organizing, educating and training people in how we can achieve the goal of making our government honest on the subject of JFK’s assassination. I want you to be a part of this, because I think you can make a difference and increase our chance of success.
Who am I? I am just another American, 58 years old, grieving for the fracture in the heart of our country and in my own heart caused by the disconnect between the truth of what happened that day in 1963 and what our government and mainstream media tells us. The lie proves we cannot trust our government. The upside is if the government changes its official position, our country will have an integrity that none of us has experienced before. It will make our country stronger and better, and improve our ability to solve problems.
We have reached the point where making the truth mainstream is more important than recriminations. As a matter of fact, we need an open minded view and respect for the people who made the terrible decisions they made in 1963. I imagine some of them felt the way people felt in 1776. I think wrong decisions were made in 1963, but I can forgive those mistakes now as a price to pay in replacing the lie that passes as the mainstream story with a straight forward truthful one. There is no one but us left to make this happen. It is our duty to set right, as far as it can be set right, in official institutions, what happened in connection with murder of your our President in broad daylight, under a noontime sun no less.
Who do I represent? I represent myself. When I talk with people in Dealey Plaza, I find them gravitating to what i am writing to you about. We need prominent people to become part of a formal effort designed to succeed.
I realize I am offering you nothing but some ideas and a promise of a welcome to Dealey Plaza. I am doing what I can to organize a more substantive effort before November 22. Inviting you to be there is one of my first steps.
Ever heard the story of Martin Treptow? Killed on the Western Front in WWI. On the fly leaf of his diary, found on his body, he had written:
“America must win this war. Therefore,
I will work,
I will save,
I will sacrifice,
I will endure.
I will fight cheerfully
And do my utmost,
as if the issue
of the whole struggle
depended on me
alone.”
There is an issue here that can be resolved only by us, the remaining survivors of November 22, 1963. It is too important to not try resolving and converting this putrid infection of lies in our heart into a healthy scar of golden wisdom.
Thank you for reading this.
Your admirer,
Dan Allen
CORRECTION
I need to correct an error in my note to Doug. The 50th anniversary event at Dealey Plaza had a significant number of admission tickets available to the general public via a lottery. Anyone could put in for the lottery and if their application was drawn, attend the event.
I am in the process of reading Alexandra Zapruder’s book now and have found your website very interesting! I have seen what I believe to be the camera original of the Zapruder film. My late brother had it on a VHS tape and I was shocked and didn’t know what I was seeing at first. It looked the same except their was no road sign blocking the action. You could see the whole secuence.
just to comment on Doug Horne’s comment that the head snap is slower in the Nix and Muchmore films than in Zapruder – this is completely false. The angles are more difficult, but nothing in them indicates it is slower. This is the problem with all of this kind of shoddy research work into the assassination,
My name is Eric and I’m a highly skilled professional graphic designer with over 20 years experience. I have been researching the digital alterations to the Zapruder film for about four years. I’ve discovered some things which have not been seen by other researchers (as far as I know). But my work has been done using the available frames from MPI and Lightbox. It would be extremely helpful to gain access to the high resolution scans by Sydney Wilkinson and Thom Whitehead which I’ve only recently heard about. Is there a way that I can obtain a copy of them for research purposes? Please contact me. Thank you.
I don’t believe they are available for purchase, at least not at this point. What is in the show notes on this website is what has been sent to me. If anything changes, I’ll be happy to let everyone know on the show. — S.T.
Apparently, the Zapruder film wasn’t shown on TV to the general public until 1975. In the film, “The Godfather”, there is a famous scene where Michael Corleone kills the bent cop Captain McCluskey, and his sidekick the gangster Sollozzo. This is in a restaurant where all three are having a meal, and Michael retrieves a gun that has previously been hidden in the lavatory. The cop McCluskey clutches his throat in exactly the same way, down to the last detail, that JFK clutched HIS throat when he got hit. Michael then puts a bullet into Sollozzo’s forehead in exactly the same place that the President got hit from the front. The strange thing is that “The Godfather” was released 3 years earlier in 1972. So did the makers of the film somehow get hold of a copy of Zapruder and if so, how did they manage that ?
Interesting parallel.
Here’s another Godfather II parallel one could draw: the airport killing of Hyman Roth vs Ruby shooting Oswald.
The Zapruder film was definitely altered. A lot of people believe he was just a schmuck who got lucky in the right place at the right time, but he was in fact involved. Two members of the CIA’s Operation 40 assassination team were posted directly behind him in the pergola, Eladio Del Valle and Herminio Diaz (head shot shooter).
Zapruder himself was a member of two CIA front organizations, “The Dallas Council On World Affairs and The Crusade For A Free Europe.”. He also had ties to the Mossad, who along with the CIA ran ops out of the Dal Tex building, where Zapruder had an office. The owner of the Dal Tex, Harold Byrd, was an oil / uranium tycoon who also a member of both the above front organizations.
Harold Byrd was helping supply Israel with uranium for their illegal Dimona nuclear facility when they weren’t stealing from the Apollo, Pennsylvania nuclear factory, as they did for 21 years, When Israel lied about Dimona they claimed it was a Textile factory for making women’s clothes, same business as Zapruder, and his partner, Jeanne LeGon, who ended up marrying George De Mohrenschildt, both members of the two above CIA front organizations as well. George Bush, also a member, along with Clint Murchison and H.L. Hunt.
A total of three shooters were caught on film and photo. The two pergola shooters behind Zapruder can be seen in the Moorman photo, and the Nix & Darnell films. A reflection of the third shooter on the Dal Tex roof can be seen in Zapruder’s own film, on the left hand side. That’s what the ghosting image is. Just look for the lamp post and you’ll see him.
The roof shooter is more visible in certain frames (which I’ll list) than others, but can be seen in the majority of frames once you know what to look for.
In the frames 155 to 157 and 208 to 212, the whole left side is blacked out to hide the muzzle flashes, which is more proof of film tampering.
Good frames to see the roof shooter are 219 to 224, 230 to 240, Best frames are 250 to 278, 334 to 340 and 342 to 349. Frames 341 and 350 are again used to hide something. Then you can see him in pretty much everything after that.
The Bell & Howell camera Zapruder had was the first model to use a new type of concave lens for the zoom function. It was also the last since the company received hundreds of complaints about the ghosting & reflection issues. The camera also used a special double sided film that no doubt contributed to many of the anomalies.
That said, tampering was a given after Zapruder took it straight to his office in the Dal Tex, a building used by the CIA & Mossad. That’s why the CIA was able to get their hands on it quick, because they were all involved.
Out of 10’s of thousands of people in Dallas that day, Zapruder just happens to be the only one in that exact perfect spot to capture the whole event, which just happens to be the same exact spot where the two main shooters also are, right behind him. And there’s no way that Zapruder wasn’t aware of gun shots being fired from directly behind him. And with another shooter that just happened to be on the roof of his office building.
None of that was coincidence.
And the fact that Yitzhak Rabin, a Mossad assassin and future prime minister of Israel, just happened to be in Dallas on that very day for all of three hours. Imagine that!
Once you know where the real shooters are, things will make more sense. Most especially all the film and photo tampering.
The Nix film is a perfect example. Watch for yourself to see what they did to hide the muzzle flash from the middle pergola window. At the exact moment Herminio Diaz fires the fatal head shot.
They degraded the crap out of the Nix film film in the effort to make it harder for us to see. Luckily for us they weren’t smart enough to realize we can still see the shooters shadows on the back wall. And no amount of grain, blur or darkening is going to hide that.
Same with the Moorman photo. More and more editing has been done to hide the shooters, including cropping the whole pergola out. More proof of the governments involvement.
A note for current listeners: since the death of John McAdams, his work no longer appears under a URL associated with Marquette University (‘mu’), hence the link to Robert Groden’s testimony in the Simpson civil case no longer works — you will be redirected to the homepage of a new website:
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/Kennedy Assassination Home Page
I was unable to find the Groden testimony on the new site using the search function there (?) — but a normal internet search confirms it is available on the new URL (jfk-assassination.net):
Groden Goes to Court — Day One At the O.J. Simpson Trial
Groden Goes to Court — Day Two At the O.J. Simpson Trial
Regarding Mr Horne’s remarks about Groden’s formal education and qualifications, I personally am careful about overemphasizing credentials — e.g. Thomas Edison had very little formal education.
Happened to come across this on YouTube:
Street’s Corner: Doctor Recalls Kennedy’s Last Moments (extended interview)
It’s an interview with Dr. Robert Schorlemer, who says he was at Parkland and witnessed the arrival of both Connally (he put gauze over the chest wound) and JFK — at 2m55s he describes the arrival of JFK, including his view of the head wound, beginning at 3m20s — note he moves his hand over the top of his own head, somewhat on the right side, from front to back, and says that entire part of JFK’s head was ‘blown away and the brains were exposed’ — then he says ‘the calvarium had slipped behind his head and was still connected by the scalp’ — of course this is at odds with what other Parkland doctors said about the head wound, but it does roughly match what you see in the Zapruder film, where it appears a sizable portion of the right top of JFK’s head, more toward the front than the back, was blown open and a large piece of his skull flops around, held on by scalp tissue.
?
These contradictory observations from doctors who were there are difficult to reconcile.
A FFF video with Doug Horne from April 2021:
The JFK Medical Coverup Q & A
In the video, Mr Horne makes an interesting claim, one I’ve never heard before: that per a direct order from Robert Kennedy, the bronze Dallas casket was later dumped into the ocean from an airplane — also that it’s possible the coffin contained some of the missing autopsy evidence, e.g. JFK’s brain — Mr Horne theorizes that similar to Dr Humes, who said he burned autopsy notes (also likely the initial draft of the autopsy report) because they were stained with JFK’s blood and he didn’t want them to become objects of ‘morbid curiosity’, Robert Kennedy wanted to dispose of some material, including autopsy evidence, once and for all.
?
I personally find Mr. Fetzer’s support of Sandy Hook as a hoax and those who are Holocaust deniers as very troubling. It is researchers like him that give conspiracy researchers a bad name and allows theorists to be labeled as “wacky”.
Just a cautionary tale…..